We Need to Talk… to My Mother. Who’s a Therapist.

You know that feeling when you’re in therapy and you think, Wow, my therapist really sees me—like, in a deep, vulnerable, soul-baring kind of way?

Now imagine that therapist also changed your diapers, grounded you in high school, and has access to your baby photos.

That’s right. Today’s guest isn’t just a licensed mental health counselor—she’s also my mother. Which means this episode has double the credentials and double the potential for childhood stories I thought were safely buried under years of memory loss.

We’re talking being a therapist in today's society, generational healing, the therapist-mom tightrope walk, and what it’s really like to raise a kid who grows up to host a podcast about mental health. (Spoiler: I was kind of a lot.)

So buckle up, grab a snack, and maybe text your mom before listening. This one’s probably gonna get personal. Let's get into it.

Alright, so you already know you're listening to Shrink Wrapped, the podcast where mental health gets the unfiltered, candy-coated, emotionally-nuanced treatment it deserves. I’m your host, Michelle O’Neil—and I'm in your feed today on the wrong day. A bonus day, one might even say; and today’s episode is a little different. A little special. A little terrifying, depending on how many childhood stories she decides to share.

Because joining me today is none other than Dr. Tamie O’Neil—a licensed mental health counselor, trauma-informed therapist, and yes, the one and only- my actual mother.

Now, before you picture me in a therapy session where the therapist says, “Tell me about your mother,” and I reply, “She’s right here,”—breathe. This isn’t a live reenactment of my inner child’s chaos. This is a conversation about what it means to come into this work later in life, how motherhood and mental health intersect, and what therapists really want you to know (but don’t always say out loud).

We’re covering everything from mental health myths and misunderstood diagnoses, to burnout, boundaries, and that one therapy buzzword she’d like to throw directly into the sea. And because this is Shrink Wrapped, of course we’ll be keeping it honest, a little irreverent, and full of deep, meaningful side-eyes at capitalism.

Michelle: So, hi, welcome!

Tamie: Hello! Good afternoon!

M: It is- it is 4 o’clock here today, so. Let’s dive in. Are you ready?

T: Let’s go for it.

M: So, let’s start out. So, let’s talk about what led you to becoming a counselor- was there a lightbulb moment, or was it more like a slow burn?

T: I would say it’s both. Uh when you come from the medical field that people can see exactly what’s going on it’s more physical uhm you can see that on an x-ray that somebody has a broken arm or you can see on a slide that with the tissue that somebody has something going on, and it’s physical. It’s very, very difficult to see when life starts to go in a very weird direction when you have a child who was just so calm, and so nice, and so pleasant for so many years, and all the sudden we hit a brick wall, and every single thing is a fight. And the first thing you do is you go, “Oh let me take them to a therapist.” So we do, and we did, and we went in; and every time we went in all I ever heard was: you’re doing everything right, just keep trying, here let’s give your child another med. These things don’t sit well. And eventually you decide well let me look into this therapy thing myself. Let me see if there’s a different way of doing things; and maybe there’s even something I need to do differently. So that was the gist of how we began that journey.

M: So would you say that- so you kind of touched on the medical side of it um so for the listeners who clearly don’t know you or anything about you, let’s-

Michelle’s Watch Siri: I found this on the web.

M: Ok Siri. Um let’s talk about- where did you start out in the medical field?

T: I was working as a histotechnologist which is in the pathology department. We received the biopsies and those sorts of things from the OR, and I also did autopsies. So I got to see everything and anything that could possibly go wrong in the human body.

M: So you’re- you’re telling us that not only have you held brains, but you look inside brains on a daily basis.

T: I definitely looked inside brains multiple times; it might not have been on a daily basis.

M: Well, you look inside brains on a daily basis now. laughs

T: I do look inside brains, but not in the same way, on the daily basis in mental health counseling. It’s- it’s just 2 different ways of looking at the same thing if its not physical ,then perhaps there’s a mental health component of it. And that speaks to why, for me, it’s really important that somebody have a physical, and see if they have anything physically going on when they have physical ailments, or appear to have physical ailments; and when it comes back that that’s not it, they can’t find anything, then we need to look at some of the other things that may be  going on for them with how they’re feeling in general.

M: I think that’s fair. Um, so was there anything that totally surprised you once you actually started practicing—something the textbooks or grad school never prepped you for?

T: I think that one of the biggest things that grad school really, really pushed was we were supposed to just ask everyone, “How does that make you feel?” And just over and over again, “How does that make you feel,” to the point that when I would do the counseling part of becoming a counselor in the practice, I would ask my children those questions exactly as it said by the textbook, and by the time I got done with grad school, my children were walking in the house going, “Hey mom, how does that make you feel?” And of course, I- I was just like this- this isn’t working for me. Um very rarely do I ask a person how does that make you feel. So that is probably that one thing that grad school taught me that I have definitely taken out of my repertoire at this point.

M: I think that’s fair. I actually, um didn’t I cross stitch you-

T: Yes you did, you cross stitched me a um

M: Like a little plaque that says, “And how does that make you feel” laughs

T: Exactly

M: Because it became a joke

T: Mhm

M: Um like do you feel- do- do you.. I guess I would ask, um do you still feel the same way about that phrase now um as you did then?

T: I still feel very strongly against using that phrase as it more so probably even than I did when I first graduated; because my feeling is that if I have to ask you every time you say something, “How does that make you feel?” What am I actually gleaning, and how am I actually helping you? I can see how it makes you feel. Sometimes it’s important to say, “How are you feeling about that last statement you made?” So we need to narrow it down more.

M: Can you touch on why that’s diff- what’s the difference between those two statements?

T: When you’re asking “How does that make you feel?” That’s so broad that the person looks at you, and goes, “I just gave you a whole bunch of information and I’m bawling my eyes out can’t you see how that makes me feel?” But I a- if I ask you how a specific statement feels then you have to rethink that statement and why you made that statement, and why maybe you’re crying now. So you- it- it’s a more in depth look at whatever that particular thing was. So it’s peeling back another layer so to say, like an onion-

M: Like an onion! Laughs

T: Yes! That- That's the point in that, but it's not just going, listening to somebody and going, how does that make you feel? And listening to somebody and hearing them and going, how does that make you feel? If you're going to use a statement along the lines of how does that make you feel, you need to be very intentional about it and know that you're leading somebody to look deeper into one particular thing, not a whole big universe of statements that they made.

M: So you would say that how does that make you feel is more of a big picture question and what you're looking for from clients and patients, however you want to phrase it, is more asking them to dive into the more niche details.

T: When I think of the statement, how does that make you feel? I can look at you and see you crying. So if I ask you, “How does that make you feel?” And you're bawling, you're looking at me going, you're a doofus. But if I look at you and I say, take this small piece of it and what are you feeling about that? That is completely different. You can say, okay, I know that she saw me crying and so she's asking me about this one piece of something.

M: I think that's fair. So, how would you say that becoming a therapist later in life shifted how you look at parenting in hindsight? Because you didn't really become a therapist until after I graduated, really. So how did that change how you relate to children or even adult kids now?

T: I think it changes your perspective on everything. And I think it makes you look at your own traumas slightly differently and realize that a lot of the things that you thought or felt or how you saw them were based on your own issues or things that you grew up with in your own traumas. So instead of looking at them necessarily from your trauma base, you're more able to look at them from the perspective of where is this person coming from and letting them tell their story and realizing it's about them. And it has nothing to do with you, but you could also have more empathy when you've been through a lot of traumas yourself to be able to go, okay, this connects to that, that connects to this, and then you could have a better way of turning it around and showing it to the person in a different way. Because the reality is this, therapy is not fixing somebody. Let me repeat that.

Therapy is not fixing somebody.

M: No, exactly. And that's something that, you know, I touched on in the therapy episode. You know, therapy is not, you're not a broken piece of machinery. You're not broken. All that therapy does is give you the tools to help you solve problems, to help you become a better version of yourself.

T: So when I think of therapy and working with a client, I think we all have blinders on. We can only see what's directly in front of us 98% of the time. So the important part of what a therapist should be doing is taking off the blinders and showing you how to look at things from different perspectives. You can't heal from something if you can only see what's directly in front of you and what you've always seen. You heal when you see different perspectives.

M: Absolutely. No, I totally agree. So speaking of perspective, I'm gonna ask this question. So from your perspective, what was I like as a kid? And be honest, but not too honest, I still need to recover from school.

T: Well, do you want my perspective then or do you want my perspective now? Because they're not the same.

M: I, let's, I think it's fair to go with both for the listener's sake.

T: So keep in mind that prior to Michelle's graduation, I was not a therapist. I was kind of working on it and had not worked through my own stuff completely. So to me at that point, she was just very difficult and wanted to buck up against everything I said and everything I did. And everything was a fight between the two of us, just a fight. If I said the sky was blue, it was grey. It didn't matter. But I did not know how to redirect or reframe at that time. So when I look back now with a different lens, it's much easier to see. Had I dealt with my own stuff first and realized that part of the problem was me not being able to slow down enough and everything had to be a certain way at a certain time, had I been able to back off that as I started to do around the time that Michelle graduated, it would have been a lot better. I would separate myself and go, we'll talk about this later. Right. And usually that is when we could have a reasonable conversation about whatever it was and come to some sort of an agreement or conclusion.

M: Right.

T: It didn't have to be all my way. I needed to be able to listen also. My understanding of being a parent back then was also quite different because of the way I grew up and parents were supposed to be right and children were just supposed to do what they were told. And if they weren't, that was considered disrespect.

M: No matter what. Yeah.

T: So my perspective now is that we do need to give our children some room to either soar or fall on their face so that we can be there to pick them up when they do fall. Because that's our job at that age. I still struggle with respect or disrespect. But as I say to most children, what all most parents are looking for is that their children are going to not scream in their face or something like that. You can have your opinions.

M: Right.

T: But do it appropriately.

M: Right. I think it's a fine line and you know, I think it's up to each individual family unit to define where that line is.

T: But I'll also say if a parent is coming in and they're saying, fix my child.

M: Oh yeah.

T: Which I get, I have gotten many, many times. I'm bringing you this child, they're doing A, B, C, and D. Fix them for me. I'm usually saying, okay, tell me the whole story. Tell me what's really happening. Tell me what you're doing to fix it.

M: Right.

T: And usually the answer is, the answer is different for a child every single time.

M: Right.

T: Sometimes it's yes, sometimes it's no. It could be the exact same situation and I tell them no and then 45 seconds later I tell them yes. That is a mixed message and you're creating your own issues at that point. It's not the child, it is the parent.

M: Right. When there's no consistency it makes it impossible and it's hard for the kid too because they don't understand.

T: They don't understand any of it. So that's why I think it's important that somebody doesn't just come drop this off their child and say fix them. Their behaviors are atrocious.

M: Right. I think when it comes to family therapy it does need to be a group experience for sure. Especially in that kind of case. Like the parent does need to be involved. So kind of along those lines, was there ever a moment where you thought yep this kid might need therapy someday?

T: Well I think we started therapy right around the age of 12.

M: It was right around then, yeah.

T: And you know we we would go in and therapists would ask what's going on. I'd give an account of what's going on and as a parent it was really frustrating to leave there every single time with no new information of how to handle anything at all or anything that was going on. So I think for me what I do try to do is at the end of every session I attempt we I talk with the child and we talk about what's going on for them, what they're thinking, what they're feeling. But I also try to bring it back around to okay so what can we tell your parents would be more effective in how to handle things and how can we get the two of you working together and is it okay to tell the the parent A, B, C, and D. If the child says no it's no. But usually we try to go from the point of view we're trying to help you. How do we get your parents on board with what you're doing?

M: I think that's really important honestly because I remember being in those sessions and I actually felt very unheard. I felt very unheard and invisible honestly. So I think that that's huge.

T: And I think that as a parent speaking from the parent perspective I was asking for that. I was asking for what can I do differently and getting nothing. So that's part of the reason why I do what I do the way I do it. I don't break confidentiality of the person if they if they don't want me to say anything I'm not going to say anything. But I say okay what can we tell your parents? What would you like them to know? What would work for you differently so that you're both getting kind of what you want? Nothing is going to be perfect but at least it'll get closer and there won't be quite as many difficulties.

M: Right, I mean it's progress not perfection.

T: Correct.

M: So, you've seen me through many developmental phases. What's it like watching me now a grown adult talking about mental health on the internet like I invented it?

T: I think because of where you came from and how against everything you were and I really can't blame you because of the many different things that we tried that didn't work. I have begun to think that perhaps part of it is the fact that I did become a mental health counselor and you've seen a lot of different changes in me as a therapist versus a parent and I think there's more there's more buy-in now to mental health counseling than there was back then and you've done a lot of your own research on it too.

M: That's true.

T: So I think that it's just been an evolution of it. I think we both grew in a way that was very similar but also very different. We can have conversations now with different perspectives on the same thing and it's okay to have those.

M: Definitely.

T: So; but I also don't see you as a kid anymore that I'm trying to raise or change your thoughts or put you on the right road or anything like that anymore either.

M: Right.

T: I don't have that anymore. I think the fact that you actually have embraced mental health after all that what you went through with mental health that didn't go well and when I'm talking about that I'm talking about the many medications that we put you on and took you off of because they were not working and every time that we would go in and go this isn't working and they would just up the dose.

M: Right.

T: And I said no that makes it worse and they didn't want to take you off and it did finally get to the point that Michelle's dad and I decided that we're not going to do this anymore. All medications are going. We phoned the psychiatrist and told them either you take her off everything or we will find somebody who will because this isn't working.

M: And that came much later. I mean I was 17. I was 17, 18, 17. That was that was right around then. So that was that was a long journey.

T: I would also add that medications are not the go-to for me. If a child needs a medication I'm more than happy to suggest but we need to go through all the other stuff first.

M: I agree.

T: Really get to the bottom of what's going on and make sure that it's more of a chemical type imbalance than just being a something we can handle outside of that.

M: I agree. I like completely agree with that. And like you know like that's something that I've dealt with on my own as well. So you know fully fully agree with that. Would you say that becoming a therapist kind of later in life changed how you understood our relationship kind of looking back?

T: I think becoming a therapist made me really look at things quite differently and wish that I had done things very differently. I wish that I had had a therapist who could tell me look how cute if you get in therapy and get some of your own stuff handled. But above and beyond that when you're a parent there's there's no book that they give you and send you home with and go here try this it'll work for your child.

M: And even if there was like every kid is different.

T: So that's why I said specifically for your child like there's no and and there isn't and I made a lot a lot a lot of mistakes.

M: It's all throwing spaghetti at a wall, man.

T: You know but I also look at it from the perspective of if I can be human with my mistakes and help other people to figure out what they're doing and how it's contributing to whatever's going on with their child and ask them to work on their stuff then that makes a huge difference for that child and maybe there's less trauma that actually exists as a result.

M: I think that's huge. I think that that's how everyone should approach everything honestly. What is kind of on that same note what is one thing you wish you could go back and tell your younger parenting self about me specifically?

T: Just slow down. She's gonna be okay. Just give it time.

M: That's fair.

T: Just give it time. She'll come around. She'll figure it out.

M:  It's hard to do in the moment though.

T:  It's extremely hard to do in the moment and and I would say you know I do it much better with you know my grandchild and my niece than I ever did as a regular parent and even if they're here 24-7 for a period of time I'm not I'm gonna sit I'm gonna I'm gonna have that first little flash so that they know that whatever they did was wrong really wrong. Then we're gonna come back and we're gonna have a whole conversation about it and how they could do things better and I was not good at that when you were young. I admit that.

M: But I think that's also kind of the benefit of time though too. You know you're coming at it now from a a much more healed place.

T: Well a much more healed place and probably more knowledge about how things actually hit people.

M: Yeah.

T: I would have to look at my background of everything was yell first, ask questions later.

M: If you ask questions at all.

T: And now it's okay I might raise my voice but I'm really not yelling and then it's okay take a break from each other and come back and have a conversation about what were you thinking.

M: What's actually going on here?

T: Yeah it's not as and nothing is dire. It's not dire. The sky isn't falling. Everything isn't a big deal and back then everything was a big deal.

M: Right. So now let's flip it a little bit. What's something that you've learned from me over the years that surprised you?

T: I think maybe it is that it's okay to not be perfect.

M: Well yeah. I mean. Did you really not know that?

T: No because-

M: Did someone actually forget to tell you that?

T: When you're raised that everything has to be on point 24-7. It's really hard to undo that in a short period of time and very honestly your growing up years were a blink of an eye. So a short period of time in my life. So yeah. I didn't have to make you be perfect and I couldn't make you be perfect which was a huge part of the problem. There is no perfect is my point.

M: No perfect doesn't- Perfect is an illusion.

T: But the pressures coming from you know older generations that I was listening to really put a lot of pressure on who I was supposed to be in relationship to you and what I was supposed to make you do.

M: You mean kind of like how I ruined my graduation because I didn't wear shoes and I wore a Wonder Woman cape?

T: Yeah something like that. And the funny part is I'm not sure that I really cared and I think that I really kind of thought it was funny. The problem was that it was unacceptable to the older generations and therefore I was catching flack for it. I wish that I had been better able to stand up for myself and you.

M: That's fair. I mean I laugh about it and I laughed about it in the moment too because I was never gonna be anything but myself by that point. I think by that point I had just said okay well you're just not gonna like me and that's fine.

T: I think the funny part is it wasn't about not liking you. It was about not understanding that it was okay to be goofy.

M: That’s fair

T: Anybody that knows me knows that I'm one of the most serious people most of the time. It's very seldom that you'll get the goofy side of me.

M: Right.

T: Because I was raised and if I did something it was your head is for more than a hat rack.

M: Well it is.

T: Well it truly is but not in the tone that it was used in.

M: Right.

T: Okay. So that’s my past that played into your- your, you know, childhood, and didn’t allow me to just, just be. So maybe it’s even just that.. maybe what you taught me is that it was ok to just be me.

M: To just be.

T: You know, just be, just be me, that I was ok- that I was good enough on some level.

M: On all the levels. You’re good enough on all the levels. Periodt. Your existence is good enough.

T: This is true. But I didn’t believe that when you were growing up.

M: That’s hard. That- do you know how hard it is? I mean, obviously you do, but like, for the benefit of the listeners. Like, do you know how hard it is to be raising a child and not believe that you’re good enough? Like, and that’s coming from a place of like I’ve also had to undo, and do a lot of work on myself over the years to kind of undo things. Like, we’ve both had to do a lot of work on ourselves over the last.. number of years I don’t want to say out loud laughs

T: But I think that that’s the important part that listeners need to understand also- is most counselors come from a position of understanding certain aspects of things because they have been through stuff

M: Right

T: We don’t need to bring it into our sessions, we don’t need you to fix it for us, because we should have already been working on ourselves. But we’re still works in process.

M: Right

T: No matter, no matter where you’re going with things

M: But that’s the thing too is like everybody has their own weird. Your therapist has weird, your therapist’s therapist has weird. Everybody has their own weird, and I think that’s something that like people need to just like be ok with. They don’t need to feel weird about.. being weird.

T: I mean, as a therapist, I- I constantly have people that say to me, “That came out wrong.” “That came out whatever.” “I don’t want you to think a certain way about it.” And I just say ok, tell me what you think. Tell me what you feel.

M: I was gonna say- what do you think I think? Like-

T: What’s going on for you?

M: I don’t think anything, bestie. laughs

T: I don’t need to think something.

M: I don’t think I would be a good therapist because I would be calling my- like- bestie, like, are you good? laughs

T: I- I think what was really funny is a couple weeks ago one of my clients said, “At the end of every session, I feel like I should say ‘love you’ and hang up”

M: Ok love you bye laughs

T: And I said Ok

M: Sure we can do that?

T: Because that’s not really what she means.

M: Right

T: What’s she’s actually saying is-

M: Like as a best friend

T: She’s saying, “I appreciate you.”

M: Right

T: That’s what it really is

M: It’s like- it’s like a best friend kind of love

T: Right- it’s not a thing like that. I had another client that goes, “I really feel kinda strange about you. I’m not attracted to you, but you’re more like the motherly type person.” And I was like, “OK. Cool cool.”

M: “I’m attached to you.”

T: Yeah

M: “You’re close to my heart.”

T: And as a therapist, you have to be really careful with that. There’s a fine line-

M: That’s, yea-

T: There’re attachments there. So it’s definitely about drawing some boundaries, so-

M: Which I definitely- I wanna get into a little bit later too. I- I- this- this- you’re getting too far ahead! You’re getting too far ahead! laughs Don’t jump my plotline! laughs Oh my god! laughing You’re too excited! laughing Oh my god! I mean it’s not gonna ruin it, but like, sighs geez! laughs So actually, let’s bring it back in here. So, bringing it back to the podcast, because we’re talking about the plotline a little bit. So when I first told you that I wanted to make a mental health podcast, what was your honest gut reaction?

T: My honest gut reaction was: Oh no, I’m going to sound like an idiot when I get on this podcast.

M: Ok, well, I can assure you that you don’t sound like an idiot at all. We are almost 35 minutes in already. Have you felt like an idiot at any point?

T: Ah no, not yet, but I don’t know what you’re gonna ask me next. Jasper barks So I don’t know if I know the answers.

M: Our best good judy, Jasper, here, would like for us to throw the frisbee because we are outside in the backyard recording. Um, but no, the whole point of this is we’re just having a conversation. Haven’t you just felt like we’re just chatting? Having a little chitty chitty chat chat?

T: Yea, I just-

M: Exactly

T: I’m not good with new things, we both know that, right?

M: But don’t worry, we’re not autistic! both laugh Don’t worry, we’re gonna get into that later too! laughs Alright, so. So, actually, this- this kind of.. This does kind of lead into kind of what I wanted to talk about next. So we’ve had some hard conversations over the years, and some funny ones too. Do you have a favorite, “Ah yes, this is our dynamic” moment?

T: Well… Well our dynamic moment years ago isn’t the same as our dynamics now

M: No. Definitely not.

T: Um

M: Our dynamic has definitely changed many times over the years

T: We- early on it was: we both yelled at each other-

M: We

T: -was great

M: We butted heads constantly. Because we’re so similar, though. But we couldn’t understand all of the ways that we were similar.

T: After that, it became: screaming and hanging up phones.

M: Yup.

T: And we would talk after a while-

M: Yup

T: When-

M: Could be days, could be weeks.

T: It was whenever the brains would settle

M: Whenever one of us could stomach calling the other, or texting laughs

T: But it was never about not loving the other person, it was really just-

M: No, we just both needed to cool off

T: Um, more recently, it’s… I don’t know, it’s just different? It’s more like having a friend than it is about having a kid

M: I think that that’s fair

T: Cause- it- the questions could go either way; I’m not always, you know, up on whatever, and we have different understandings of how to do things. And it’s just- I- I think it’s that- it’s more of a mutual respect now? With understanding that each one of us has our specialty areas.

M: I think that’s fair. Yeah.

T: Um, it’s understanding that when it comes to billing, I don’t know anything. I, I can press a button that says bill, but- but I don’t know all the rest of that stuff. Alright?

M: Speaking of which, I am gonna run billing before I leave the house today laughs I will take care of that before I leave laughs

T: But I don’t- I think the biggest thing is I don’t feel the need to check up on what you’re doing anymore? Because I have more trust in you.

M: Ok

T: Than I did

M: So you feel- I- would it be safe to say that you feel more like secure in our dynamic?

T: Yea; I think the only time I don’t feel secure in our dynamic is if you’re in a weird place and I send you a message and you’re- or I call you and you’re like flat. And then I feel like oh I did something wrong

M: Like yesterday when I was moving furniture? laughs I was literally moving furniture laughs

T: But those kind of things do happen

M: Yeah

T: Off and on, and it’s like I don’t want anything happening to our relationship

M: Right

T: at this point. So I try not to- I consciously think before I speak these days; versus when you were young, and it was just like BOOM

M: Right and it- well, yeah

T: I didn’t have- I couldn’t take any time to-

M: Right

T: -Manage it before it happened

M: And that’s a heard thing for anyone to do, too. Because I remember, as a kid, you constantly told me to think before I spoke. And I was like I don’t know how to do- how do you think before you speak? You want me to take 10 minutes to think about what I’m saying before I say it? laughs You want me to script- Well, I guess I can’t say that, because I doscript out conversations before I have them, but it’s not like- in the moment I’m not scripting it out. laughs Like I script it out hours ahead of time.

T: I think it’s hard for me because for me, in most situations, other than parenting, I actually do think it before I speak it. I have an idea of what I wanna say, and where it’s going before I actually say it.

M: Like right before it comes out of your mouth, though?

T: Yeah, it’s before it comes out my mouth.

M: That’s crazy.

T: It just is-

M: I don’t do that. Like if I- So, so like… Do you do- do you do the thing where you go to a drive thru and like while you’re in line at the drive thru, you’re already scripting out the entire exchange from like the second you get to the speaker until the second you’re driving away? And you’re like, in your head you’ve already scripted out every single thing you’re gonna say and every single thing the other person is gonna say so that you are prepared for everything that’s going to happen? Do you do that?

T: So let me give you a hint.

M: Cause I do that.

T: Based on what you’re saying, there’s no way you could be a therapist.

M: laughs

T: Because I absolutely have no idea what somebody’s gonna say to me in the moment. I only know before it comes out my mouth what I’m going to say. So what I can tell you is when I go through the drive thru, I look at the thing, and I decide exactly what I’m going to have-

M: Wait!

T: Which is-

M: Stop!

T: Exactly what I’m going to say

M: Stop! You don’t know what you want before you go to the drive thru?

T: Well, the thing- the thing where you- the speaker part

M: Yeah!

T: Where you speak into

M: You don’t know before you go?

T: No I consider-

M: Oh my god

T: And I look at-

M: How do you do that?

T: And I go ok I want this, this, and this, and then they come on and they ask me what I want, and I tell them, “I want this, this-

M: Oh my goodness

T: -and these sizes”

M: I’m learning so much, guys. I’m learning so much. I can’t believe. My flabbers. My flabbers are gasted right now. I can’t believe that you don’t know what you want before you go places.

T: No idea.

M: This is- This is actually crazy to me laughs

T: Just like I don’t know what somebody’s gonna say to me before we get in the session. Or I don’t know what they’re going to say to me.. I’ve- I’ve heard so many funky things-

M: Well, no, but don’t you like, have like kind of a general- like I know a lot of your clients are like regulars at this point. Like don’t you have like a general idea of what they’re gonna say? At this point?

T: There might be some generalities, but usually someone throws meat least 2 or 3 curveballs in every session. So I really try not to go in with a lot of preconceived-

M: Ok so without breaking any HIPAA… Any HIPAA.. Is there a curveball story that you can tell us? Just one curveball story that you can tell us real quick before we move on to the next segment?

T: I think that the reality is that some people come in and they- they really want to see if they can get you. So I had somebody come in, I was meeting with them, they were having problems with their partner, and they threw in: there was an extra guy in the bed with 3 dogs.

M: Wait. I’m sorry.

T: Yeah.

M: I’m sorry.

T: That was a curveball, and I sat there with a completely straight face. And I didn’t really react to it at all, which, really, I… He was looking for a reaction.

M: I’m gonna need you to run that back by me one more time, please. Did you really just tell me… Was this person that said this a man or a woman?

T: A man

M: Ok. This man came into your office. And said that there was another man in this man’s bed-

T: So basically, another man, this man’s partner, and 3 dogs.

M: This man’s partner. Another man. And. 3.

T: Small dogs

M: Oh. They were small dogs. Cause that makes it so much better. both laugh Do we know the breed of the dogs? both laughing

T: No. No idea

M: You didn’t even get us all of the tea??

T: No I-

M: Geez!

T: Very honestly-

M: Gosh, Tamie!

T: At that point-

M: Really slacking!

T: At that point, really, um, was taken aback, if I wanna be honest about it.

M: Wow

T: And really didn’t want to know more about that situation

M: Ohhkay

T: You will get people that come in, and they really wanna rock you, to see if they can mess with your head

M: Ohhhkay

T: And you really have to sit there and show no emotion about the whole thing-

M: Did you ask him how that made him feel? laughing

T: Uh no.

M: laughing

T: But he was happy to tell me how all of it made him feel

M: laughing Did it make him feel conflicted?

T: No, nope, he was very happy about the whole situation

M: OH!

T: Yes

M: Oh my. Ok. Moving swiftly along.

T: Yes. Let’s not stay on that one too long

M: Moving swiftly along, listeners! Let’s all move swiftly along from there. Anyways, if you had a magic bullhorn and could shout one message about mental health to the whole world, what would it be? And if you say don’t get in bed with dogs, I will throw you off this patio laughs

T: If I had to say one message for mental health, it would be: We all have mental health issues, so don’t be afraid to deal with them.

M: Oo that’s a good one. I like that one.

T: Don’t be afraid to address what’s going on for you

M: I like that one. That’s good. What would you say is one mental health myth you wish we could collectively delete from the internet?

T: One mental health myth…

M: Yes, a myth, something that is patently false

T: I think the- the biggest myth is that I really want to debunk is that your therapist will fix you. That they have a magic wand in their drawer that they’re just going to-

M: Bippity boppity boo

T: Bippity boppity boo and you’re going to be all better. We don’t fix people, we facilitate change.

M: That’s fair

T: I don’t fix anybody, you fix yourself. I just help you find the tools to do it- or find the information that you’re looking for.

M: That’s fair

T: But I’m not a fixer. If there’s anything that anybody that worked for me ever said is Tamie always goes around saying we don’t fix things we facilitate change, and they all roll their eyes initially-

M: But it’s true

T: And then after you really think about it, it’s the truth. And anybody that thinks we’re going to fix it, you’re all dreaming. I can’t fix anything.

M: But it’s true though, because fixing implies that something is broken. People aren’t a machine that’s broken. You’re not a broken plate.

T: But also, it also implies that I’m going to wave a magic wand and you’re going to feel all better in 2 or 3 sessions, and that is not a reality

M: Right. It takes long term- it takes work.

T: It’s your work, though

M: Right

T: Not the therapist’s work. You have to do the work.

M: Right. No, absolutely. So kind of along the lines of the internet speak, here. I know you don’t spend a ton of time on the internet because you’re very, very busy- you’re a busy woman. What diagnosis or term do you think is most misunderstood or misused right now—especially on social media?

T: Oo that’s hard, because I don’t-

M: I know, you don’t spend a ton of time- you’re not.. But we’ve kind of talked a little bit about stuff

T: I think that… Things that fall under Borderline Personality Disorder or Bipolar Disorder. I think my biggest issue with the internet is that we give everybody 4-6 different diagnoses all at once, and I don’t really feel like there’s a need for that. Ok? A lot of times, somebody will have a trauma, so we’re gonna give them PTSD, anxiety, depression, and anything else we can throw at them. Very honestly? All of it? If you really look at it? All of it falls under PTSD.

M: Right. And actually, you know, we just did the PTSD/CPTSD deep dive- when this episode comes out, it’ll be a couple weeks ago- but that- just did that one and we talked about how all of those things fall under that PTSD. So I think that that’s totally fair, and I think that it’s important to note that. So I think that that’s huge.

T: But if you’re asking me what diagnosis there’s not enough realistic information about?

M: Sure

T: The biggest one I would say is ADHD. Because it’s really- there’s more information that’s come out recently- within the last 5 years or so.

M: Definitely

T: About the diagnosis of ADHD in women, and girls in general

M: Definitely. It’s definitely been talked about a lot more, and especially on social media.

T: It’s not all just the hyperactive kid that can’t sit down in class, or whatever like that. It’s-

M: It’s the daydreamers.

T: It’s the daydreamers, it’s the girls that they’re struggling so hard- they’re maintaining in school, and then when they- you know yourself-

M: Right

T: They come home

M: They crash

T: And you would crash, and explode, and everything else

M: Right, because I was masking all day

T: You know, to the point where I didn’t know that I had been masking for many, many, many years

M: Right! You just got your own diagnosis!

T: That- that is a big part of the reason why when you would crash, as you call it, I would explode.

M: Right

T: Because what do I do with that?

M: Well, and not only that, but you were really doing the same thing.

T: More or less

M: Come to think of it. Thinking back, you know, we were kind of on the same loop together.

T: In a lot of ways. But you know, even when I went in to talk to somebody, to go through the evaluation, I really felt like they didn’t believe me that I was going through these things all of my life.

M: Right

T: “Well you’re successful.” Ok. Yeah. I’m successful. “But you did ok in school.” Ok. You didn’t see-

M: Yeah but you worked your ass off to do ok in school.

T: But they didn’t see the amount of work it took

M: Right

T: Or the amount of harassment that I got at home when my grades weren’t at least 90s.

M: Right

T: And if they were 90s, how come they weren’t 100s? You know, nobody ever saw that. And that’s also part of the trauma of never feeling good enough.

M: Right

T: So I would look at ADHD as one of those ones that we really need to look into more, how they play out in women. And the more women-

M: Like from a prof-professional- oh my gosh, my mouth-

T: From a professional standard, yes

M: Yes.

T: I think there needs to be more information out there about it on the women’s side of it and what that looks like. You know, and then as they’re evaluating me, they’re going, “What was it like for you when you were 4 or 5 years of age?” laughs And I’m laughing! Come on! How many years ago was that?

M: That was a few minutes ago! laughs

T: But there are things that I did remember that was said to me.

M: Right

T: That I could never keep my mouth shut, and that’s why I got smacked more than the others did. And you know, that type of thing, that is a part of the ADHD-

M: Right

T: -that I was never diagnosed with because I was very quiet and shy. I think the other part of that is people don’t realize the impact that ADHD has on the fact that you’re not going to potentially now going to have a lot of anxiety and a lot of depression that surround it.

M: Absolutely. I was- I don’t remember who I was talking about this with the other day, but there’s a lot of shame. You feel so much shame. Especially on executive dysfunction days- the days where you’re just paralyzed because of your ADHD. The days where you can’t get anything done, you’re stuck in this loop of I know I need to do this thing, but I can’t make myself- Oh I might have been talking to you about it this morning?

T: Mhm

M: I know I need to do this thing. I was talking about the dishes.

T: It was about the dishes

M: I was talking about the dishes- I know I need to do the dishes, but I can’t make myself do the dishes, and I’m so ashamed because I can’t do the dishes, and that leads to depression.

T: But the flip side of that is those of us that have somewhat learned how to manage the ADHD to do the things

M: Right

T: It means that we have much more rigid schedules

M: Absolutely. Well, because you have to. Because that’s the only way to deal with it.

T: But the problem is when the schedule gets funky

M: Oh yeah, then everything is wrong

T: It’s a trainwreck.

M: Oh yeah, then you’re freaking out

T: And then there’s the anxiety.

M: Exactly. And then you have the ADHD rage, too. Because that’s another piece of it. You know, because ADHD- and I think that this is also… You know, let’s also put this under a myth. ADHD is not a disorder of hyperactivity. It’s not a disorder of I can’t sit still. And actually, this is what you and I talked about when we first talked about you going and getting evaluated. This was how I started the conversation with you

T: Well, we can’t say that it’s not- it can be. But it’s not the complete picture.

M: But it’s not- here’s the thing: it’s not a disorder of hyperactivity I can’t sit still. It’s a disorder of dysregulation.

T: Well, you’re dysregulating the ability to sit still

M: Exactly. You can’t sit still because you’re dysregulated. You can’t pay attention because your attention is dysregulated. So-

T: So that’s the thing with kids in school also. You know, just because a child is sitting still in their little chair at their desk, does not mean that they’re paying attention.

M: Oh god absolutely. laughs

T: You know?

M: Absolutely

T: If anybody had ever seen me in school? And actually seen me?

M: Right

T: I was always doodling. There was always something going on. But nobody ever-

M: I used to draw on my pants

T: I know.

M: Laughs

T: Lots of things came home on those pants.

M: Swirls, lots of swirls.

T: For me, it was always lots of swirls as well, but it was always building something.

M: So, we’ll kinda move on to our next kinda section here, cause we’re talking about myths, and we talked about how therapy isn’t fixing people, how it’s facilitating change. Let’s kind of go back to that idea a little bit. What does healing actually look like in real life—not Instagram-carousel, pastel-journal life?

T: Healing is actually being able to accept that what happened happened, not trying to sweep it away or hide it, and being able to accept that you get to move on. You still get to live your life. You don’t have to live there.

M: That’s hard. chuckles

T: It is hard.

M: That’s a hard one.

T: And that was something I started to work on many many years ago. My mother in law was one of the absolute most wonderful people-

M: Oh you’re gonna make me cry now

T: She came to me one day, and she said, “Tamie, you’re holding all these grudges, and you’re holding on to them really hard.” She said, “But the problem is that you’re the only one that’s still hurt by them. The other people have no idea what you’re even angry about anymore.”

M: What’s that, um, that quote? That philosophical saying? What do you call those? There’s a word for philosophical sayings, I don’t remember what it is off the top of my head, doesn’t really matter. Isn’t it “holding on to anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die”

T: Pretty much. But the other part of it is healing is about forgiveness, and forgiveness isn’t for the other person, it’s for you. Because when you forgive somebody, you can let it go.

M: So I’m gonna challenge that just a little bit. Because I don’t think that you have to forgive someone. I think that it’s ok to not forgive someone.

T: But if you heard what I said, forgiveness isn’t for them, you’re not actually giving to them

M: No I know, but I think-

T: You’re allowing yourself to let it go.

M: But I think that you can let it go without forgiving them

T: Some people can, some people cannot

M: That’s fair. I’ll agree with that. I just don’t think that it’s a necessity

T: And just because you forgive somebody, or you let it go, it does not mean that you want that person in your life anymore

M: Absolutely. I will stand 10 toes down on that one. All day long.

T: But I also think that once you get to that point, you can be in their presence and be civil without liking somebody.

M: I don’t know if I can agree with that one

T: For the most part. But it takes a long time, and a lot of work. And I can think of one person right now that I have not forgiven, not sure that I will ever-

M: I don’t think you ever will. I know exactly who you’re talking about. So let’s just… On that note, we’ll just.. in a singsong voice Moving right along. A little Muppets reference for all the children in the audience who definitely won’t understand that. What’s a block you see that keeps people stuck, even when they want to grow?

T: Fear. Fear of change.

M: We fear change. Change is scary.

T: Well, change is scary

M: Change is terrifying

T: The devil you know is less scary than the devil you don’t know

M: The dumpster fire you live in is still your dumpster fire laughs to quote myself

T: I mean, so yeah, it’s fear, fear of change; is one of the biggest blocks that people get stuck in.

M: Is it just being scared of change or do you think there’s something deeper to it?

T: It’s the what ifs.

M: Ooo getting trapped in the what if patterns

T: “What If it’s not any better?” “What if I don’t like that either?” And the biggest thing that people don’t understand is that you’re going to stay where you are until you actually do make a change. Until you accept that you have the power to get wherever you want to go. But it’s gonna take time, and change.

M: And you have to put the work in

T: You have to put the work in. But you always have to have your head on a swivel to figure out “how can I make that happen?”

M: Right

T: So you have to have an idea of a goal that you have in mind. What do you want?

M: I was just gonna say- you have to want it too

T: You know, when I started my business, I didn’t know if it was gonna work or not.

M: Well, yeah you did, cause I told you it was, goddammit. laughs

T: But the reality was that-

M: I said you were gonna do it whether you liked it or not laughs

T: Well, there was still some fear, you know, of if it was gonna work or not. Eventually, I came to the conclusion of if you build it, they will come

M: And come they did

T: And you might have to make some changes along the way on how you do something, but if you stay at it, you’ll get where you’re going.

M: And look at you now! You’re on a podcast!

T: Yeah, who’d’ve thunk that?

M: Me. laughs I told you. I told you from Day 1 you were gonna make it. So let me ask you this-  Do you believe everyone needs therapy at some point, or nah?

T: I think that everybody needs therapy at some point, the bigger question is is everybody willing to accept therapy at some point.

M: Why do you say it that way?

T: I think that we- I haven’t met anybody that has lived the charmed life that nothing negative has ever happened in their life. So from that perspective, everybody has stuff that they can work on for themselves.

M: I think that’s fair

T: Whether they accept it or not is another story. Had you asked me when I first had you, actually that’s not true- I did see a therapist then.

M: I was gonna say, you had some trauma around my birth, too, so

T: But if you were to ask me mid-teens?

M: Ok

T: Like 14/15 if I would ever need therapy, I would have told you no.

M: Which is crazy.

T: Yes. It is crazy.

M: laughs

T: But you need to think about how I was raised- that therapy was unacceptable, and that we didn’t need therapy, cause we could handle anything ourselves.

M: That is actually insane. I need you to- I know that the listeners have no idea, but I need to- I need to step away from being a podcast host for a second and actually say that that is actually insane.

T: I will just say that having had some Traumas™ in my life

M: You’ve had some major traumas.

T: Even during those times? When I asked to go to therapy, my parents said No. Therapists are a joke. Therapy doesn’t work.

M: I am not surprised by that.

T: So you’re also talking to somebody whose parents did not believe in what they did-

M: That’s fair

T: -that they did not believe in the field that I entered. And when I got my doctorate degree, my father actually looked at me and said, “Well, you’re a doctor, but not a real one, right?”

M: I remember that

T: So yeah, it’s very different for me.

M: That’s fair. That’s fair. So, circling back around to where you jumped ahead a little bit earlier on my plotline, when you got a little too excited laughs How much do you think the vibe between client and therapist actually matters?

T: If you’re not feeling comfortable with your therapist, don’t bother going back. I would say give them three sessions, if you can’t feel it within those 3? It’s not gonna happen, and you’re not gonna get what you need out of it. I always tell people first session- I’m not everybody’s cup of tea. If it doesn’t feel like it’s working for you, it’s probably not. Give me a try, if there’s something you feel like I’ve done or said that doesn’t sit with you, let’s talk about it. You’re in control. You’re always in control. It’s not my goal to be any kind of an upper hand. So

M: Are there questions that you think people should ask a therapist? Like how do you think people should feel a therapist out? Like that’s not something that we ever talk about. Like how do you feel a therapist out?

T: Ooo that’s pretty hard

M: That is very hard, I know

T: Because every therapist is different on what they will or won’t give you for information, and most of them tell you, “I can’t tell you anything about me” because-

M: Well, so not even so much about- I mean that is my next question is about self-disclosure, but I don’t mean that side of it yet. I just mean like asking to feel out the vibe. How-

T: I don’t know that it’s a question that they ask to see if the vibe is good, but I do think it’s about do you feel heard as a client. Do you feel heard? Do you feel like I heard what you said? Do you feel like there’s that empathy level there? Do you feel like I can understand where you’re coming from? And I think that comes from how is the therapist responding to you?

M: Ok

T: I don’t think there’s a specific question, but I think that people are able- you’re able to test your therapist with a statement, or whatever, and see what the vibe is- what are you getting back from them?

M: Is there like a litmus test for therapists that you as a therapist would recommend people like kind of use? Like is there a way that- I don’t-

T: If you don’t- If you’re talking to your therapist, and you feel A. unheard- like I didn’t hear you at all, like I can’t even empathize with what you’re telling me. That therapist that’s going “how does that make you feel? How does that make you feel? How does that make you feel? How does that make you-“ Stop. We have a lot more important questions to ask than how does that make you feel.

M: Oh you mean like the time that I texted you after I went to one therapy session and said hey did you know that just writing in a journal would solve all my problems? laughs

T: I actually had a therapist- er a client right now, that their previous therapist was telling them, “You need to just make new goals, and create the best you.” You have to deal with what’s going on in your life that has made you feel uncomfortable in order to move forward. So that’s what I’m saying- if you don’t feel like your therapist is hearing you?

M: That makes sense

T: You need to shut it down

M: I did. For what it’s worth, I never went back laughs

T: Well

M: So we kind of almost touched on it, do you think therapists should self-disclose more, or keep it neutral? And where’s the line for you?

T: I think there’s a purpose in self-disclosure that needs to be very careful, you need to be very careful with. You’re not giving out a lot of personal information, but the reality is if you give the clients absolutely nothing ever? Then you become somebody who they don’t understand, and they don’t believe that you’ve been through anything, and you’re just sitting on some high horse.

M: That you can’t relate to them in any way

T: So I think that there are points where it’s very important to self-disclose; and sometimes, it is in that first session with that person that is sitting there having trouble, struggling to talk with you. And being able to say, you know what, I’ve been where you’re at. I’ve been in places that were dark. You don’t have to tell them what those places were.

M: But just a vague, “Hey I really do understand”

T: Yeah, been different places, I’ve had traumas, too. But being able to show them that you’re human.

M: Right

T: We’re not robots. But they don’t need to-

M: I mean, I hope not.

T: They don’t need to know everything about us.

M: I hope you’re not robots. Could you imagine robot therapists? That would be terrible.

T: They’re coming out with them

M: No, don’t tell me that.

T: The AI world is trying to develop it, and I just feel like it will be a disservice-

M: I don’t- I’m not concerned about AI because I’ve seen what AI gives me when I use it for Photoshop. I asked for a dojo and it gave me baked beans. I’m not concerned laughs

T: Well, I know that they’re working on it, let me just phrase it that way. But-

M: So- go ahead

T: The human aspect of things that we need to let people see us in a light that isn’t “we’re perfect and you’re coming to us because we’re perfect and we can fix you.”

M: I think that that’s totally reasonable because perfection doesn’t exist, and I think people need to be reminded of that.

T: And it’s not always holding a straight face.

M: Oh god no

T: I’ve seen-

M: That would be terrible

T: I’ve seen therapists that do that.

M: I would-

T: Just no emotion at all

M: I would be terrified.

T: So you have to understand that you’ve gotta meet the client where they’re at.

M: I agree. So how do you handle it when a client just doesn’t click with you—or you don’t click with them?

T: I ask them. I talk with them about it. I say, “Lookit, it feels like we’re missing on some level. Can you help me understand what I’m not providing for you so that I can meet you where you’re at? I don’t make it their problem. It’s myproblem. How do I better connect with you? What am I missing on?

M: That’s fair

T: I honestly don’t have that issue very often, so-

M: No, cause everyone’s gotta have their Tamie Time™

T: I have clients who see me as very human, and do wanna talk about it- whatever “it” is for them.

M: I think that’s important, though. So, how do you- you know, because you’re human, because you’re so in demand, because you’re The Woman™-  how do you personally protect your own mental health as someone who holds space for everyone else all day?

T: Well, the first thing I do is I’ve created a schedule that I do try to stay within now, and take some time for myself. More recently, it’s “No, I can’t do 4 o’clock in the afternoon on a Friday.” That’s Tamie time.

M: And not, not their Tamie Time™

T: No, that’s just Tamie time. I try to get out and go camping as much as I can. I think it’s important to just do the things that you enjoy doing. And I take time in the evenings to just let my brain sit. I’ll flip on the TV and I’m not even really watching it? I am literally just vegging.

M: Just rotting on the couch?

T: Mhm

M: I think that’s fantastic. I love that for you.

T: And if I’m really ambitious, I’ll listen to an audiobook

M: Perfect

T: So

M: So, you know, we kind of touched earlier on boundaries with clients. What’s one boundary you had to learn the hard way in this field?

T: I think the biggest thing is that I can’t- that I don’t fix anybody, and that I’m not saving anybody. So it really is preserving my time, and making sure that people understand that I’m not available 24/7 to them. Because your clients will try to reach out to you 24/7.

M: Oh, don’t I know it

T: And if you respond, they will continue responding

M: Right

T: And you could be up all night doing that

M: Right

T: And it’s really important for the client to also learn to sit in whatever it is that they’re going through. So responding to every single text or message or anything else is not actually helping them.

M: Right. Well, because you’ve given them the tools, they have to also use the tools.

T: Correct.

M: So, let’s actually back up, because we did actually kind of touch on, you know, client-therapist boundaries a little bit. Let’s actually circle back around to that a little bit more, because I didn’t let you go all the way into it. So, circling back around, you know, you talked about how one of your clients said that he’s not attracted to you, but he kinda feels like you’re like a maternal figure. And you said that, you know, that that’s really dangerous.

T: The thing- what I mean by “it’s dangerous” is when you said that they are attached to me. That is the dangerous part.

M: Yes

T: Ok. They- there’s always an attachment of some sort. But you have to make sure that it’s not something that they can’t ever end therapy. So, my goal with people is usually is they’re feeling that attached, I will start spacing their appointments out further and further knowing whether they can handle it or not. Occasionally they will come back together again, depending on what they’re going through in the moment

M: Right

T: But you try to space them out further so they realize that they don’t need you. They can do this.

M: Right

T: You don’t want a client to need you

M: I mean as good as that kinda feels, like that validation of being needed, that’s not actually what you want as a professional.

T: Correct. I think what’s even harder is you do meet people that you actually feel like “Oh I could be a friend to this person if it was a different situation”

M: Right. Like if it wasn’t a professional setting.

T: Right. But I don’t touch that. You can’t be friends with me. There has to be that space in order for the counseling to work.

M: So that kind of brings up an interesting question that I’ve kind of seen on the internet. If you had that kind of like vibe with a client, and you discharged them-

T: 3 years.

M: That would be the time limit that you would have- Ok.

T: It’s that, you know, you really need to be stepped away for about 3 years, and go from there.

M: Ok, that’s interesting

T: the other part of this is that clients  very often don’t understand that when you’re in the store, they’re- and when you see them in the store? I will not approach them. Because that’s inappropriate on my part.

M: Right

T: But they may come up to me, and it’s usually they wanna hold a whole conversation.

M: Right

T: I used to have this when I wasn’t doing telehealth, and I worked in the community. It got to a point where I would have to actually send my husband down the aisle to get whatever it was in that aisle because I didn’t wanna deal with that.

M: Right. It’s just safer that way too

T: It was safer, but also, it got me to the point where I learned to tell clients before I was in that situation, “I’m not going to be coming up to you in public, because that’s a HIPAA violation-“

M: Right

T: “But if you come up to me, I will respond with a hello or whatever, but we’re not going to talk about therapy type stuff in public. So please don’t do that.” So I’m not ignoring you.

M: But

T: But there’s some lines to this that, you know

M: We can’t do this. No, I think that’s totally reasonable. And I think that that’s a really interesting thing that people don’t consider, too

T: Well, it’s also a boundary as a clinician that you wanna set so that you don’t have people just bombarding you all the time with whatever in public

M: Right- I just meant like, as a normal just like person, like that’s something that I never considered. Like not that I would ever- I don’t ever wanna approach anyone in public anyway. But I never would have considered like the social etiquette for seeing a person that I like know, that like knows me that well in public. Like I never would have considered that before, so I think that that’s like really good to touch on. Cause like I don’t know if anyone else would have considered that either.

T: The reason I said anything about it is the fact that there have been some clients in my early years who I would see, and because I hadn’t said that previously, I avoided them “Why did you avoid me in public?”

M: “Do you hate me?” Like, yeah

T: Yeah, you know, so-

M: “Why don’t you love me anymore, Tamie?”

T: So that’s why I am very funny about that, and you know, that’s a hard limit for me.

M: No, I think that that’s totally reasonable. But that also kind of- The fact that you had to send POprah down the aisle, because people were bombarding you, that actually kind of leads us.. That’s a good little segue you set me up for. Do you think that burnout is inevitable in this work, or is that just capitalism gaslighting us?

T: Burnout definitively exists in this particular field, ok?

M: But do you think it’s inevitable?

T: It is not inevitable if the therapist chooses to make sure that they take the time for themselves and do the things that they need to do to engage in self care.

M: What do you think self care looks like?

T: Well, self care is different for each person. Self care, part of it is- what happens is we do get too involved in capitalism. And, because we need to make X-amount, and the majority of people who are doing any kind of individual counseling or whatnot outside of an agency, it’s fee-for-service.

M: Right

T: So when you talk about fee-for-service, and there’s no time off involved in that. So you have to make all your money all at once, basically

M: Right

T: That person thinks about “I need to make X-amount of money, and then I have to make X-amount more in order to be able to take a week off.”

M: Right

T: So now you’re talking about people who are probably working, and I’ve done it myself-

M: You were working crazy hours

T: 50/52, maybe it’s 51/52 weeks a year

M: Right

T: Hauling down up to 40 and above sessions a week

M: Right

T: That- that-s a bit much. I had to learn, myself, that every so often, every couple months, I gotta take a week.

M: Right

T: And just go do something else- whether it’s camping, or a trip, or something else, whatever it is. But it was also cutting those hours back a bit, cause I was upwards of 52 hours a week at one point

M: I was gonna say, you were doing heavy duty hours

T: Now, it’s more like 30-35 a week, and those are back to back sessions.

M: Right, and even then, some of those days are rough.

T: So generally, for me, I try to smush them into the middle of the week, so I have more time on the ends to create-

M: Right, I was gonna say-

T: To create more space for myself

M: Mondays and Fridays you usually work like a half day

T: Yup, that’s usually the goal. And for a while, it was getting to be too much because those were all filled up too, pretty much

M: Right

T: That’s a mistake. When you start to feel like life is too hard for you, that is burnout. Or when their problems start to bleed into your problems, and you’re just yelling at everybody? That is burnout. So is it inevitable? It doesn’t have to be.

M: I think it’s important for people to know what burnout is, and how to recognize it. Which, actually, I know that I have an episode on burnout coming out at some point- I would have to look.

T: But burnout definitively looks different for different people

M: Burnout is actually episode 34, so that won’t be out for a little while. But no, I agree.

T: I mean, for me, it is irritability, it is overwhelmed, it is “I don’t want to talk to anybody;” I just want to shut down, and climb in a hole. You talked about my Tuesdays and Wednesdays and Thursdays being much heavier days- at the end of those days, I protect myself by really not talking to people in the evening or at nighttime.

M: Cause everything is already too much. She just rescued me from a bug.

T: It was a spider

M: It was a spider. It was an arachnid.

T: So

M: It was trying to eat me

T: It really is about protecting your wellbeing

M: I thought she was gonna say, “Protecting your children from spiders”

T: Yeah, that too, cause they like to throw shoes at them some of them

M: Not me- that’s your other daughter laughs

T: It was interesting

M: Do you remember when she kicked the door open, though? And broke the door?

T: Well, she got scared because she was locked outside, and she didn’t bring her key with her, so she kicked the door in. But that’s just as bad as the time I kept hearing THUNK THUNK

M: And it was shoes laughs

T: THUNK So I finally got up and went in the room and I said “What are you doing?” “Well there’s a spider over there, and I need to kill it.” I said “Stop throwing the shoes” went and got a paper towel or a tissue or something, squished it and got it out of there, like oh my god. She goes, “Well, I can’t do that.”

M: Do you think she kills spiders now?

T: No, I think she does the same thing

M: laughs Just throws shoes

T: Yes

M: Probably laughs oh man. Alright, so now that we’ve lightened things up a little bit, this actually brings us to our final segment, which actually is a little more lighthearted.

T: Woo

M: Are you ready for a little lighthearted?

T: Uh oh, are we gonna roast me?

M: No!

T: Ok

M: No, it’s just lighthearted! Are you ready?

T: Sure

M: Ok, What is a therapy buzzword that makes your eye twitch a little?

T: A therapy buzzword.. Of course my brain goes blank, cause-

M: Cause I put you on the spot laughs

T: You must know one of them that drives me insane, and I can’t even think of the buzzwords

M: Oh I know lots of them that drive me insane

T: So what’s one that drives you insane?

M: You know, actually I think, we kinda talked about for you, you know, “how does that make you feel” drives you absolutely up the walls

T: Mhm

M: But I wouldn’t say that’s a therapy buzzword. So let me ask the question a different way and see if this jogs your brain a little bit. People that weaponize therapy talk, what would you say the way that they use those words, like…

T: I think the word crazy drives me crazy, literally. Because we’re not crazy, we just have different thought processes, and we all think differently. So words like crazy, stupid…

M: Oh, so I drive you insane, then

T: Well, because you’re not stupid, and you’re not crazy. Those words mean different things to different people. Can’t. The word can’t totally annoys me. And I end up saying everything- can’t means won’t try.

M: Man, we really should look up my sixth grade band teacher, and we should like send him a card. Because that is the one thing. That stuck so hard. Because he’s the one that taught me that.

T: I mean, can’t truly means that you’re not willing to put in the effort. The other word is fail. I failed. Failure isn’t something that didn’t work out, failure is unwillingness to try again.

M: Fall down 7 times, get up 8

T: You know, it truly is about- people are constantly saying “I failed.” Well, how did you fail? You did something that didn’t work. You found a new route.

M: It just means you didn’t try again

T: You know, and that’s because you said you can’t, and can’t means won’t try.

M: Exactly

T: So there’s you’re lightheartedness, cause I just rolled that right around

M: You really did. What do you wish clients actually knew before their first session?

T: I wish that they knew that they have it within them, and that all we were going to do is help them find it within themselves.

M: Ooo look at you, you little deep well of knowledge! You little wishing well! both laugh And you thought you were gonna be the one that sounded dumb! laughs Gonna drop a little penny in you! laughs

T: I think that the thing is that everybody thinks that it’s not within them, and it truly is within yourself. You just have to find it.

M: You gonna do a little excavating? A little Indiana Jones?

T: Well, isn’t that what we do? We open up the blinders so you can find it within yourself.

M: I’m gonna get you a hat and a bullwhip.

T: You know, as soon as I can use that bullwhip, I will laughs

M: You’re right-handed!

T: I know, but if you use your right arm, it affects your left arm, right now, so-

M: She just had so-shou-

T: Shoulder surgery

M: There we go. My mouth decided to not work. laughs Amazing. Alright. laughs And now I’m coping with that, and that brings us to the next question laughs What’s one coping skill you swear by—and one you secretly can’t stand?

T: I think the one that I actually swear by at this point is finding positives about yourself

M: Ew chuckles

T: I think because we live in such a world-

M: It’s so hard

T: -and we’re raised in such a world of negativity, because you’re always told all the things you did wrong. And it is super hard-

M: It is

T: -for us to find things that are right about ourselves

M: It is, absolutely

T: So, I tell people, I want you to, in the first week or two, write down a list of 5. And you’re gonna post them where you can see them. And each week you’re gonna add one to it. But it has to go in a place where you’re gonna see it every day. Because when you’re at your lowest? You can’t think of those things, and you have to be able to see them visually in order for them to exist.

M: I would get super bright post it notes, and pretty like glitter gel pens- you make it as aesthetic as possible-

T: As eye-grabbing as possible

M: Yup. And you write it with your prettiest handwriting

T: The one that is the hardest for me? And I’m slowly warming to it, very slowly warming to it, is meditation. And I think-

M: That one’s hard

T: I think because I can’t shut my brain down, so how can I ask you to do that?

M: That’s fair

T: So when I talk about meditation in any way, I talk more about a guided meditation

M: Yeah, they have apps for that

T: Where, where your-

M: Headspace is a great one

T: Where your brain is actually following something

M: Yup

T: And you can do that, which actually stops all that other stuff for at least a short period of time

M: Yup

T: And allows it to open back up again

M: Exactly

T: But to ask me to meditate?

M: And just do it on your own

T: And just drop everything?

M: Yeah

T: And go blank? Because I’ve never been able to do it myself

M: Right

T: And I’ve tried

M: Right

T: How can I ask somebody else to do something I can’t do?

M: I actually have realized, you know, doing all the work on myself, that the way that I meditate- and it’s a form of meditation- I listen to music. That is actually a form of meditation, is- I’m actually just shutting my brain off, and there is only music.

T: The funny part is, I cannot even do that.

M: oh, I hate that for you

T: So, for me-

M: Oh, you don’t have that kind of ‘tism

T: No. So, for me, I have to do something like a guided meditation, so I will turn on the river- the sound of a river

M: Yup

T: The ocean or a river. If I use the ocean, it is being able to see, hear, use all my senses

M: Yup

T: To actually put myself there.

M: Oh that makes sense, yeah

T: And if I do a river thing, it is me in a leaf, on the river, and what that would be like

M: Oh do you have like a VR headset to do it?

T: No it just-

M: Oh you should get one

T: No, it’s just literally the sound and my brain does it. So it’s basically finding your happy place, and putting yourself there-

M: Oh that’s cool

T: With all the sounds and everything else to make yourself feel as if you’re there completely

M: That’s cool! Ooo I like that! That’s neat! Maybe I need to add that to my little- I don’t know where I would put that, but put that in one of my episodes

T: But actually just to flat out meditate is not one of my strong suits

M: Fair. So what’s a coping skill that you secretly can’t stand?

T: When a therapist says “When you feel that way, count to 10”

M: Ew. What good is that gonna do me?

T: It’s not

M: laughs

T: Because we can all go 12345678910 and nothing has changed

M: speed counts to 10 Ok I feel nothing

T: But if I ask you to count back from 100 slowly

M: Ew

T: At the rate you would want your heart beat to be at

M: I would hate it

T: And breathe with it, you would hate it, but for those people that are having a panic attack?

M:Ohhh

T: It’s beyond effective

M: That’s fair, yeah. That makes sense.

T: Because it does 2 things: it slows the brain down, because you have to think to count backwards

M: And you’re forcing them to think about their heart rate

T: Yep

M: That makes sense

T: And with the breathing slowing, and the heart rate slowing, it also stops-

M: And you’re actually grounding them

T: Yes

M: Oh I like that. I’ve heard the count up to 10, but I hadn’t heard that one.

T: Yeah

M: So, there ya go, kids

T: It works

M: If you’re having a panic attack, use that one

T: If you can’t fall asleep at night, slowly count backwards from 100.

M: I’ve never done that

T: You might have to do it a couple times, but because you have to think it, it shuts off all that other garbage that’s going on in your head

M: D’you know what I do? And this is something that a nurse taught me in a hospital. What I do when I can’t fall asleep is I actually picture, like I visualize like all the energy in my body. And like I start at my feet, and like I picture at my ankles, the energy is leaving my body from my ankles down through my feet. And then I go up to like the middle of my calves, and then I picture all of the energy is leaving my body from the middle of my calves down through my feet.

T: That’s pretty cool

M: And then I go up to my knees, and then I picture all of the energy is leaving my body from my knees down through my feet. And I just go up my body that way. And usually I only make it to about my hips, and I’m asleep. So, take that and just stick it in your back pocket, if anybody is having trouble falling asleep. Because that’s something that I’ve kept with me for like almost 15 years now, and that never fails me. Um, so. There’s no segue into the next question here laughs But I’m just gonna bulldoze my way through, cause that’s how I do everything in this house laughs If mental health were a menu, what’s the appetizer, the main course, and the ‘chef’s special’ no one orders enough?

T: The appetizer is where you go for the therapy. Whether it’s in person, virtual, etc.

M: Ok

T: How you choose that, wherever. That’s your menu of different types

M: That’s the menu or that’s the appetizer?

T: That’s the appetizer

M: Ok

T: The menu-

M: The main course?

T: The main course, I guess- the main course, yeah. The main course is probably actually the therapist.

M: The therapist is the main course?

T: Yep

M: That’s a choice

T: But I mean-

M: But ok. The therapist is the main course. You heard it here on Shrink Wrapped.

T: What it is is it’s about are you choosing the therapist that works for you or not

M: Ok. Are you sharing it with your best friend?

T: Well, you’re not sharing that with your best friend

M: Are you sharing it with your p- Oh are you sharing it with your partner? That’s cute. That’s actually accurate

T: You probably are sharing whatever you’re coming home from that you’ve learned from your therapist

M: You actually probably should be

T: You know, and the thing that people don’t order enough of?

M: Yeah, the Chef’s Special! What’s the Chef’s Special?

T: The Chef’s Special is actually what is the specialty of the therapist.

M: Ooo yeah let’s talk about that.

T: So what kind of therapy do they do? Are they doing EMDR, which is the rapid eye movement? Are they doing cognitive behavioral therapy? Are they doing solution focused therapy? Are they doing motivational interviewing? Pick a type. What are they doing? Have some understanding of what these different types of things look like. A good therapist, a really good therapist, doesn’t choose from one of those menus. They choose multiple things, put pieces of each one together, and tailor it for you.

M: I think that that’s fair. That should be part of your care plan.

T: Yes, but I don’t want you to know everything that I’m doing

M: No, because then you’re gonna-

T: You’re gonna try to outthink what I’m gonna say or do next

M: Right

T: So, when Tamie went and saw a therapist

M: Because your therapist should be seeing a therapist

T: The reality is this, I could not pick a therapist that knew how to do the things that I know how to do really well. I needed them to be able to do something I don’t know how to do. And at that time, it was EMDR, brain tapping-

M: What is brain tapping?

T: Well, brain spotting, excuse me

M: What is brain spotting?

T: It’s when you’re thinking this thought, and they actually use some sort of a cane or something to move your- move it closer or further away from you gestures with her pointer finger in front of her eyes moving it toward her eyes and believe it or-

M: I thought you were gonna tell me you got a lobotomy, and I got scared for a second

T: Ohh no. And actually, with them moving closer or further away, it actually, they can- you can feel it in one spot when they come close enough to you with whatever they're using, and in this case it was a cane, and I was like “whoa” and they had to stop for a bit and just hold it still. And eventually your brain processes whatever that was.

M: Interesting

T: So it’s kind of like EMDR, but it’s not with the- the eyes aren’t moving back and forth as much

M: Interesting. So your therapy was a lot more physical rather than talk therapy

T: Yes. We did talk therapy with it; and he attempted to do cognitive behavioral with me and I just looked at him and said I know what you're thinking before you even ask me the next question

M: So you were out thinking him

T: Yes and most therapists will often do that

M: Which makes sense because like CBT is like basic

T: CBT is very basic but it brings with it- when I talk about opening blinders and stuff, it's very effective for opening up the blinders for- to help you to look at something else, because we're opening- we're causing you to look at different cognitions, and how your behaviors fit with those cognitions. So I would never say it was really basic-

M: No, and that was definitely a poor choice of words on my part. I meant more standard.

T: More standard, yes. I would say it's more of a standard thing. Some people are better at it than others. Somebody who's logical and linear- more linear thinking is going to be more of a cognitive behavioral therapy that the therapist uses- the therapists themselves as linear and logical is probably going to use more of that approach, because we're going to see what's outside of the realms

M: Interesting

T: We're going to probably see how your behavior’s hooked to your thoughts,

M: That makes total sense. See? I could be a therapist. I could do it

T: You can't script ahead of time

M: Sure I can! Cause I can already see outside the box to script all of our encounters! I can already see all of the pieces!

T: I don't think you're a script this one

M: I could do it! I could do this! I could do this! I got this! I already have a podcast! I could do this! laughs I could talk to everybody laughs Alright, final question. Are you ready?

T: Sure

M: Alright. Counselor by day, blank by night, what's your alter ego?  Ohh she's thinking hard.

T: I think that is a hard question because it really speaks to who I see myself as. And I think I've so integrated counselor into my life that it's not one thing. It's multiple things. I think outside of counseling, I usually see myself as a wife, a mom, a grandma, those types of things. I see myself as more of a caregiver even and-

M: Yeah, but who are you, not what you provide for other people. Who are you?

T: I'm just a goofball

M: You heard it here on Shrink Wrapped- Counselor by day, goofball by night: Dr Tamie O'Neil laughs

T: Just a goofball

And, there you have it, kids—therapy wisdom, maternal insight, and generational healing all rolled into one emotionally complex, surprisingly cozy episode. A huge thank you to Dr. Tamie O’Neil—not just for being my guest today, but for being my lifelong example of how it’s never too late to step into your calling, set boundaries, or go back to school during, or after, raising emotionally spicy children.

We talked about myths that need to die, what healing actually looks like when it’s not curated for Instagram, and why “just self-care harder” is not a real treatment plan. Whether you’re a therapist, a client, a parent, a kid, or someone who grew up thinking “fine” was a personality trait, I hope this conversation made you feel seen, soothed, and maybe a little bit called out—in a good way.

If you loved this episode, do me a solid: Rate it. Review it. Share it with someone who’s ever considered therapy—or motherhood—as a radical act of courage.

And if you’ve got questions, comments, or just want to share your favorite therapy buzzword that makes you cringe, pop over and join us on the O'Neil Counseling app- there's a link in the show notes! Or if you've got burning questions you're just dying to hear on a bonus episode, you can email me at Michelle@OneilCounseling.com and I'll be compiling your questions and my answers and they'll be featured on a bonus episode!

New episodes drop every Thursday, so make sure you’re subscribed wherever you get your podcasts—and until next time, keep it messy, keep it honest, and remember: being a “lot” doesn’t make you broken. It just makes you… complexly interesting.

Catch you next week when we talk about self worth. Because, to quote the great RuPaul, "If you can't love yourself, how in the hell you gon' love somebody else? Can I get an amen?"